We've been very back and forth on if we would want to move to Italy. We spent six weeks there last year, been many times for the obvious reasons (school, landscaping, safety, food quality, proximity to other cultures). Our biggest concern (and would love to hear your thoughts), is how are you going to mitigate the economic concerns for your kids and grandkids? If I were to move, my kids would face the same lack of economic opportunities. Maybe I can get my kids to open a business digitally since they're US citizens, but what about their kids?
Great question, Sam. I'll start by saying that nobody can actually forecast economic opportunities 40-60 years from now. Nobody expected Lisbon to become a tech hub. Italy might turn around in the future as well. That said, I'll grant that the aging population is a real challenge with economic impact in the foreseeable future.
I don't think concern for your hypothetical grandkids should drive your decision today. If it were me, I'd just be strategic about it.
1. Your regional choice matters. Pick Bologna over Calabria. Set your roots in the part of the country where the job opportunities actually are.
2. Your kids' US citizenship is permanent and inheritable. It can be passed along to the grandkids too. Make sure they have both passports and learn English at a native level.
3. They'll have the distinct advantage of being bilingual, with two passports, able to work in both a local (if weak) and international market.
4. They'll be able to go to top Italian universities for very cheap. Your kids and grandkids will likely be highly educated and have pleny of remote job opportunities. There are already plenty of those, and many digital nomads take advantage of them in Italy. Raising them with an entrepreneurial mindset is likely to pay off and insulate them from the weaknesses of the local market.
Enable the kids to be resilient and they'll be fine regardless of the local economy.
You know how many Italian people are moving OUT of Italy every year? Look it up. Nobody in their right mind (except for millionaire pensioners) would move to a country where the social system is crumbling. You need to access to real Italian media, and read it. You’re moving to a place where schools are defunded, safety is going down the drain (enforced measures by a fascia government just to appease the feeble minded), food is increasingly industrial (and agriculture is under strain).
How about committing to actually contributing to the local economy, rather than just taking advantage of what you like of Italy but then “open a business digitally” in the US, thus contributing to the US economy instead of the one of the country you'll be actually living in?
This is what makes me furious when it comes to US citizens moving here, they only want the benefits, who cares about the community.
What are good ways you’ve seen for people contributing? Most people come with US businesses that usually serve US customers because it’s more lucrative. If they were to go into the Italian market then they would be competing with locals for jobs which would obviously be worse. When they move, they’re going to local Italian markets and shops so they’re spending their money in Italy vs back home. What ways would be better? (genuinely asking)
If you live in Italy for over 183 days a year and want to run a business, you are required by law to open a partita IVA. This means you'll pay Italian taxes on your income, whether you made it through foreign clients or domestic ones, plus INPS contributions for social security. On top of contributing to the local economy by spending money where you live, you're also contributing by paying taxes. In practice, you're pulling foreign money into the country. That's a substantial and helpful contribution.
I don't want to put words in Giorgia's mouth, but I think the legitimate frustration is with people who live in Italy but stay registered as US tax residents only to avoid paying Italian taxes. They take all the good things Italy has to offer without paying their dues here. I'm assuming that's not what you have in mind. You want to move and run your business with foreign clients from Italy, which is something Italy could really use. So please do.
Our "free" stuff (healthcare, education...) are paid for by our taxes. I don't have children, but my taxes also pay for other people's children's education, for instance, and I'm glad to contribute. Most US "expats" don't care about that, they come here, take advantage of the "free stuff", while registering their online businesses in the US, thus avoiding contributing with their taxes here. And yes, that is indeed infuriating.
Fair point that for an Italian autonomo, partita IVA can feel punishing, gestione separata rates, no real safety net, the forfettario cliff. That’s real, especially for a population used to the posto fisso. The situation for someone moving from the US with foreign clients is different though. They don’t expect the same work guarantees that Italians are used to. Plus regime forfettario means a flat tax (5% the first five years, 15% after) up to 85k euros in revenue, depending on activity. A couple each running their own partita IVA can live large in most of Italy on that.
The point is that most of the people who will have that kind of business will need to be in a place where internet is fast (or have starlink), close access to transportation (this excludes a lot of places that are “cheap”), and most of these people after three years in a small village in Abruzzo will be bored out of their mind - and won’t have “integrated”. They will start suffering because they cannot “really” talk to the doctor and because all the “leisure activities” are not of their liking (they came for the Dolce Vita and ended up into a Pieraccioni movie).
I would LOVE that more people with international mindsets would go to places where they can be themselves and can add to the community, but what I see is that Italy is hemorrhaging people, importing elderly Americans/brits/nordics that are willing to integrate and ci tribute UP TO A POINT. And I say this as a “part time resident” (live in one country half time, in Italy half time and work for a third country altogether)
Serendipity! I just watched Un Mondo a Parte two nights ago. What a lovely film—sweet and funny, sad in its subject matter, yet inspiring because of the love and determination of some of the town's residents to keep it alive. I hear it's had a wide reach in countries beyond Italy, and I hope people who see it understand that it's not just fiction.
We love our life in Italy! We just moved from Trieste to Belluno. I work remotely with a US company but my husband has a local job. It's been a great mix of integrating locally while having the funds to live comfortably.
I think someone frugal could live for a lot less than €2500 in small town Italy. But I think the taxes might still be a problem. Or is that amount before taxes?
Yes, definitely. In many small towns in Italy a careful single person can live on much less than €2,500 after tax. If you're frugal and pick a cheap place, even €1,000 is doable.
The €2,500 figure assumes a comfortable lifestyle margin (eating out, weekend trips, occasional indulgences), not bare-bones. The kind of lifestyle someone from the US, Canada, or the UK would likely want when retiring or moving to Italy.
On taxes, the options for people earning income from abroad or retiring in Italy are generally favorable. I'll be writing a dedicated post on taxation soon, including what it means for Americans who have to file in both countries.
I'm from California and I have lived here for 21 years and people still think I'm crazy. California suffers the same reputation in some senses. People have in their imagination what California is but the reality is a place that is totally unaffordable. I am happy to be where I am in the Castelli Romani.
Ha, careful Sarah, you’re gentrifying the Castelli Romani! 😂 More seriously, I’m so glad my country provided a safe and affordable place in the world for you.
Ha! This is the reason why I was so scared of moving to Italy. I remembered it through the eyes of a very young me who went abroad to look for more opportunities. My life in Italy now would be very different and I have become very curious about a country that is as close to me as it’s been distant after so many years abroad. I am in Portugal now but I can’t deny there are things of Italy I now miss deeply.
We've been very back and forth on if we would want to move to Italy. We spent six weeks there last year, been many times for the obvious reasons (school, landscaping, safety, food quality, proximity to other cultures). Our biggest concern (and would love to hear your thoughts), is how are you going to mitigate the economic concerns for your kids and grandkids? If I were to move, my kids would face the same lack of economic opportunities. Maybe I can get my kids to open a business digitally since they're US citizens, but what about their kids?
Great question, Sam. I'll start by saying that nobody can actually forecast economic opportunities 40-60 years from now. Nobody expected Lisbon to become a tech hub. Italy might turn around in the future as well. That said, I'll grant that the aging population is a real challenge with economic impact in the foreseeable future.
I don't think concern for your hypothetical grandkids should drive your decision today. If it were me, I'd just be strategic about it.
1. Your regional choice matters. Pick Bologna over Calabria. Set your roots in the part of the country where the job opportunities actually are.
2. Your kids' US citizenship is permanent and inheritable. It can be passed along to the grandkids too. Make sure they have both passports and learn English at a native level.
3. They'll have the distinct advantage of being bilingual, with two passports, able to work in both a local (if weak) and international market.
4. They'll be able to go to top Italian universities for very cheap. Your kids and grandkids will likely be highly educated and have pleny of remote job opportunities. There are already plenty of those, and many digital nomads take advantage of them in Italy. Raising them with an entrepreneurial mindset is likely to pay off and insulate them from the weaknesses of the local market.
Enable the kids to be resilient and they'll be fine regardless of the local economy.
I wish you the best with your decision.
Also her potential grandchildren would only have Italian citizenship if one of the parents if Italian. There is no birthright here yet.
Yes, no jus soli in Italy.
You know how many Italian people are moving OUT of Italy every year? Look it up. Nobody in their right mind (except for millionaire pensioners) would move to a country where the social system is crumbling. You need to access to real Italian media, and read it. You’re moving to a place where schools are defunded, safety is going down the drain (enforced measures by a fascia government just to appease the feeble minded), food is increasingly industrial (and agriculture is under strain).
How about committing to actually contributing to the local economy, rather than just taking advantage of what you like of Italy but then “open a business digitally” in the US, thus contributing to the US economy instead of the one of the country you'll be actually living in?
This is what makes me furious when it comes to US citizens moving here, they only want the benefits, who cares about the community.
What are good ways you’ve seen for people contributing? Most people come with US businesses that usually serve US customers because it’s more lucrative. If they were to go into the Italian market then they would be competing with locals for jobs which would obviously be worse. When they move, they’re going to local Italian markets and shops so they’re spending their money in Italy vs back home. What ways would be better? (genuinely asking)
If you live in Italy for over 183 days a year and want to run a business, you are required by law to open a partita IVA. This means you'll pay Italian taxes on your income, whether you made it through foreign clients or domestic ones, plus INPS contributions for social security. On top of contributing to the local economy by spending money where you live, you're also contributing by paying taxes. In practice, you're pulling foreign money into the country. That's a substantial and helpful contribution.
I don't want to put words in Giorgia's mouth, but I think the legitimate frustration is with people who live in Italy but stay registered as US tax residents only to avoid paying Italian taxes. They take all the good things Italy has to offer without paying their dues here. I'm assuming that's not what you have in mind. You want to move and run your business with foreign clients from Italy, which is something Italy could really use. So please do.
Precisely what Antonio said.
Our "free" stuff (healthcare, education...) are paid for by our taxes. I don't have children, but my taxes also pay for other people's children's education, for instance, and I'm glad to contribute. Most US "expats" don't care about that, they come here, take advantage of the "free stuff", while registering their online businesses in the US, thus avoiding contributing with their taxes here. And yes, that is indeed infuriating.
That means that in a couple of years they’ll leave because partita iva is basically disguised slavery.
Fair point that for an Italian autonomo, partita IVA can feel punishing, gestione separata rates, no real safety net, the forfettario cliff. That’s real, especially for a population used to the posto fisso. The situation for someone moving from the US with foreign clients is different though. They don’t expect the same work guarantees that Italians are used to. Plus regime forfettario means a flat tax (5% the first five years, 15% after) up to 85k euros in revenue, depending on activity. A couple each running their own partita IVA can live large in most of Italy on that.
The point is that most of the people who will have that kind of business will need to be in a place where internet is fast (or have starlink), close access to transportation (this excludes a lot of places that are “cheap”), and most of these people after three years in a small village in Abruzzo will be bored out of their mind - and won’t have “integrated”. They will start suffering because they cannot “really” talk to the doctor and because all the “leisure activities” are not of their liking (they came for the Dolce Vita and ended up into a Pieraccioni movie).
I would LOVE that more people with international mindsets would go to places where they can be themselves and can add to the community, but what I see is that Italy is hemorrhaging people, importing elderly Americans/brits/nordics that are willing to integrate and ci tribute UP TO A POINT. And I say this as a “part time resident” (live in one country half time, in Italy half time and work for a third country altogether)
Serendipity! I just watched Un Mondo a Parte two nights ago. What a lovely film—sweet and funny, sad in its subject matter, yet inspiring because of the love and determination of some of the town's residents to keep it alive. I hear it's had a wide reach in countries beyond Italy, and I hope people who see it understand that it's not just fiction.
Thank you for sharing, Cheryl. I love it when moments like that happen.
We love our life in Italy! We just moved from Trieste to Belluno. I work remotely with a US company but my husband has a local job. It's been a great mix of integrating locally while having the funds to live comfortably.
Loved reading this! Thanks for holding the pen on this.
I think someone frugal could live for a lot less than €2500 in small town Italy. But I think the taxes might still be a problem. Or is that amount before taxes?
Yes, definitely. In many small towns in Italy a careful single person can live on much less than €2,500 after tax. If you're frugal and pick a cheap place, even €1,000 is doable.
The €2,500 figure assumes a comfortable lifestyle margin (eating out, weekend trips, occasional indulgences), not bare-bones. The kind of lifestyle someone from the US, Canada, or the UK would likely want when retiring or moving to Italy.
On taxes, the options for people earning income from abroad or retiring in Italy are generally favorable. I'll be writing a dedicated post on taxation soon, including what it means for Americans who have to file in both countries.
I updated the FAQ in light of our conversation.
I'm from California and I have lived here for 21 years and people still think I'm crazy. California suffers the same reputation in some senses. People have in their imagination what California is but the reality is a place that is totally unaffordable. I am happy to be where I am in the Castelli Romani.
Ha, careful Sarah, you’re gentrifying the Castelli Romani! 😂 More seriously, I’m so glad my country provided a safe and affordable place in the world for you.
If by gentrify you mean my campaign against profuse littering and garbage dumping, you'd be correct. ;)
Thank you for your service. 😅
There are upsides to gentrification, this is one good example. Thank you. I don’t live in Italy but as an Italian I really appreciate it.
Ha! This is the reason why I was so scared of moving to Italy. I remembered it through the eyes of a very young me who went abroad to look for more opportunities. My life in Italy now would be very different and I have become very curious about a country that is as close to me as it’s been distant after so many years abroad. I am in Portugal now but I can’t deny there are things of Italy I now miss deeply.